Having undertaken a serious exploration of Catholicism before venturing eastward, I understand the difference between veneration and worship. I just re-read most of Bishop Ware’s The Orthodox Church where he leads off his discussion of the Mother of God with this:
“Just as Orthodox Christians here on earth pray for one another and ask for one another’s prayers, so they pray also for the faithful departed and ask the faithful departed to pray for them.”
Okay, so far so good. But just as I was reading Ware, I was simultaneously reading Father Arseny – Priest, Prisoner, Spiritual Father. This book comes highly recommended by Fr. Stephen Freeman, and is revered by just about all Orthodox for good reason as it describes the courageous faith and inspirational leadership of an extraordinary Orthodox Priest who suffered extreme persecution at one of Stalin’s most notorious death camps. It is mostly short stories about Fr. Arseny and the faith he inspired amongst his beloved spiritual children.
Sprinkled throughout this volume are references to Mary such as this:
“Prayer to the Mother of God was always the most saving and unfailing protection from all physical and spiritual dangers.”
“I entrust you to our defender, the Mother of God. You must each take a little icon with you and pray to her the whole trip.”
“Oh Mother of God! O blessed St. George! Help them, save them, and protect them.”
This goes well beyond merely honoring or venerating the Theotokos. In the above citations, Mary is assumed to have saving powers and she is clearly being prayed to, not being asked to pray or intecede before the Father or Son as explained by Ware. The Father and Son are bypasssed altogether, at least in their utterances.
In two stories, Mary actually appears and saves women from danger. These aren’t just poor, uneducated peasants. They are Fr. Arseny’s spiritual children – people who take their faith very seriously and receive instruction from Fr. Arseny.
I was a little surprised to see these kind of references to Mary in a book that is frequently recommended as introductory reading material for inquirers. I’ve heard versions of Ware’s above explanation many times and have completely changed my understanding of the communion of saints.
“Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses” (Heb 12:1) is written in the present tense! I take great comfort in knowing that at an Orthodox liturgy, heaven and earth are joined together. Therefore, we can ask for the prayers of the saints at any time, and just as we may ask a friend to pray for us, we can ask them to do likewise.
But what we have in Fr. Arseny is the expectation that The Mother of God will take direct action herself. This is sanctioned by Fr. Arseny and at least one other Priest in the stories.
I’m sure someone will say that I need a more nuanced understanding of this and that I’m still seeing this through my “Western eyes.” I mean no disrespect to Fr. Arseny or any his spiritual children who managed to keep their faith in the face terrible hardship.
But it sure seems that Mary is coming awfully close here to adding to the trinity.
Up front, forgive the long reply… Mary is indeed a major speed bump. However, regarding “saving” people, I think we need to start with the scriptures: There’s a long list of people and things in Scripture *besides God* that save us – for instance:
Saint Paul (1 Cor 9:22) To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak, I have become all things to all men that I might save some.
Saint Timothy (1 Timothy 4:16) Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching…for as you do this you will save yourself and those who hear you. (Literal trans. fudged in Bibles….)
Our spouse (1 Cor 7:16) How do you know O wife whether you will save your husband, Or how do you know O husband whether you will save your wife?
He who converts a sinner (James 5:20) Let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
We save others (Jude 1:23) Have mercy on some who are doubting, save others snatching them out of the fire….
Childbearing (1 Tim 2:15) The woman shall be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self restraint.
The prayer of faith (James 5:15) The prayer offered in faith will save the one who is sick and the Lord will raise him up and if he has committed any sins they will be forgiven him.
The apostles’ words (Acts 11:14) And he shall speak to you words by which you and your household will be saved.
The water of baptism saves us (1 Peter 3:20.21) corresponding to that baptism now saves you…
The language of salvation is not nearly so restricted in Orthodoxy as it is in modern protestant evangelicalism. I might add it seems like Orthodox language is even more biblical than the “sola scriptura” folks in this regard….
Ultimately ALL things that “save” anyone in any sense of the word are acts of God, and not any human being (or even saint) apart from the grace and power of God working in and through them. So it is not really a “nuanced” understanding, it is firmly a biblical one that I think evangelicals have missed because of their narrow definition of salvation and rome-o-phobia.
I hope this helps,
s-p
Thanks S-P. This is definitely some provocative material and an angle I’d never considered (imagine that!).
I love to point my sola scriptura friends to 1 Pet. 3:21 regarding Baptism and watch them dance!
Now, I understand that “saving” has different meanings, but in the Fr. Arseny book it seems that the expectation is that Mary:
1) Hears the prayer and,
2) Takes direct action herself
3) Without asking the Father or Son for help.
I don’t think many people would pray to their spouse or others from the long list of people you reference in the same way that Mary is referred to throughout the Fr. Arseny book, although we would acknowledge their prayers may have a role in “saving.”
As you point out, God is the one who ultimately does the saving. But, would you feel comfortable saying this prayer I cited from the Fr. Arseny book?:
“Oh Mother of God! Help them, save them, and protect them.”
Would you concede that some of Fr. Arseny’s spiritual children are misguided?
JFred – I have to be embarrasingly honest here. I share your feelings, even though I went ahead and took the plunge and was received into the Orthodox Church. I have told my priest this, and he wasn’t at all concerned. He said Mary was never part of my life in all my years as a Protestant, therefore this issue will take some time. So, I will check back here to see how others respond to our shared concern. I wish there were an easy answer on this where I could just say, “Aha! That’s it!” So far, nothing has come up to put me at ease. Nonetheless, I have never been so challenged and grown so much in my walk with God as I have since I became an Orthodox Christian.
This might not add anything useful to the discussion, but I have read on more than a few occasions that influences from Roman Catholicism and other Western sources often crept into certain quadrants of Russian theology and piety back in the 18th and 19th centuries. Perhaps, in this respect, Father Arseny’s words represent some of these influences.
That said, I think there is also an angle that Mary plays a role in salvation by the fact that she willingly brought Christ into the world. Though this is an act during a certain point in history, it also has a connection with the appearance of Christ in our own hearts and in the world now. So such prayers to Mary might be seen as prayers for the birthing of the son of God in our own lives, “until Christ be formed in you.”
Also, in your 3rd point in response to s-p: “Without asking the father or son for help.” It’s quite possible, even probable, that it was assumed by Father Arseny and his spiritual children that it is only the power of God that these prayers depend on or that Mary’s intervention operate in, and so nobody flinched when hearing them spoken the way they were spoken.
These are only off the cuff ideas, not well considered. Thanks.
–Jeff
JFred, I’m thankful you posted this. I’ve been trying to formulate my own thoughts on this matter, and I think this will help. In my inquiry into the Orthodox Church, I’ve been troubled by what seems to be superstition to my Western mind/Protestant presuppositions.
I’ve encountered other examples of the kind of prayers Fr Arseny’s disciples offered to the Theotokos, except they were addressed to other saints. What troubled me is that these went beyond asking the saints to intercede for us to asking for guidance, and to work out circumstances on our behalf. One person, on a message board for testimonials of answered prayer, shared that her prayer to St. John of San Francisco procured a rental car for her while traveling, and smoothed out many details of her trip.
I don’t have much difficult in believing we can ask the saints to pray for us (at least intellectually, for now). We are one in Christ; surely there must be a mystical connection there that allows them to hear our requests. But I struggle to understand how the departed can come and intervene on our behalf. And I feel the same as you that this is a departure from the many sensible explanations I’ve read by authors such as Bishop Ware.
One clarification: I wanted to make it clear that this person’s testimonial I referenced went beyond giving credit to the prayers of St. John to believing that he was actually the one that did the work for her.
Maybe you should stop thinking in terms of rules and more in terms of relationships.
The witness of the Church throughout the centuries seems to be that God does not withhold the Saints from us, their intercessions, and yes, even actions permeate aspects of our lives that are very hard to explain, and especially at the outset, hard to accept.
Keeping in mind that there is obviously nothing a Saint can do outside of God’s will. If you want try and fit every experience people have of them, and for that matter of God as well, into an objective framework, then try away.
Why should God act through them and not merely “do it Himself” as it were? I suppose the same could be asked of God using any person to minister to us.
There is no line between those alive in Christ. The irony is that we are more asleep to the work of the Lord in this life than those who are “asleep in the Lord.”
Wake up and experience the presence of God who is wondrous in His Saints!
“Why should God act through them and not merely “do it Himself” as it were? I suppose the same could be asked of God using any person to minister to us. ”
John– thank you. The difficulty that remains is that the Orthodox (and Catholic) explanations of Mary go to great lengths to dispel the mistaken notion that they “pray to” Mary of any of the other Saints.
Ware writes: “In private, an Orthodox Christian is free to ask for the prayers of any member of the church.”
It is always emphasized that this is merely asking for intercession before God and of course there’s a huge difference. One can not read the Fr. Arseny book and conclude anything other than the fact that Mary is being prayed to and that she is directly responding, sometimes bodily. They are not simply asking for her prayers.
Forgive me, I didn’t mean any offense by the above comments, or to sound polemical. I don’t believe I’m thinking in terms of rules rather than relationships, but rather working within the boundaries given to me by Orthodox believers and authors I’ve spoken with or read (including Bishop Ware’s “The Orthodox Church”). What JFred has pointed out is what seems to be an inconsistency between the boundaries I’ve just described (again, not rules) and the practices of some Orthodox believers. Do you think it’s possible for some Orthodox Christians to misunderstand this teaching and take it too far?
Please don’t assume that because anyone doubts or questions that he or she is asleep to “the presence of God Who is wondrous in His saints” and in need of waking up. These are difficult questions and take time.
Not being Orthodox myself, I am hesitant to weigh into this conversation, but a couple of thoughts occur to me.
“Saving” may mean something other than just the unique salvation of God through Christ. A drowning man may call for a lifeguard to save him. Such a request (or prayer) would not imply that the drowning man lacks faith in God; neither would it detract from the glory properly given to God.
I suspect that most Orthodox would view Mary and the saints as more like friends or relatives than as a lifeguard, but that would simply make such a call for help more natural.
The prisoners’ plea for help directed to Mary is not that different from what Bishop Ware describes. It is simply another way of asking Mary for her help, or (stated another way) her intercession.
Please forgive me if I have misstated any Orthodox belief.
Reading over what I wrote, I hope I didn’t sound too preachy. Don’t blog post with exclamation points!
Seraphim, I would always and primarily include myself as one who is asleep to the action of God. My struggle is to simply get the words of prayer out of my mouth, let alone to consider the reality behind them. I am a blind man desperately in need of healing.
As to whether other Orthodox believers misunderstand a particular teaching or take something too far, it’s really not my call to make.
I think RTC makes the point I was trying to make fairly well, especially in regards to the word “save.” I would further add to the point I was trying to make about relationship, rather than rules.
Rather than worrying so much about whether one is transgressing in some way by saying, for example, “most Blessed Theotokos save us,” rather than “most Blessed Theotokos pray to God to save us,” perhaps you should consider the relationship involved, rather than the words or some “rule.”
The Mother of God and the Saints are of necessity subordinate to the Holy Trinity, though through grace they share in the unending communion of God amongst the persons of the Trinity. A life spent in the prayers and services of the Church would lead one to no other conclusion.
The important thing is not how one addresses the Saints and the Mother of God, but how one understands them to be in relation to God. The Mother of God is the favored one, the one chosen from before all eternity to give life to the Son of God. All honor given to her is from her Son and ultimately goes back to Him.
Humbly I would add that as my perception of the importance of her work has expanded, so has my perception of God. Still, my perception of the reality of things as they are is of little importance compared to…well, the reality of things as they are. If I err my perception of God and His Saint, I am certain the error is one of underestimation. I would think that the same would be true of most Christians, but again, it’s really not my place to say.
With respect, what I seem to be hearing from JFred and Seraphim is a worrying about what other Orthodox Christians might be thinking. Forgive me if I read too much into your words, but if this is the case then you are treading on dangerous ground. I think I’ve done gone to preaching here again. Sorry.
I would add that these are indeed difficult issues and do take time. At the risk of being preachy yet again, spend the time praying in and out of the Church rather than trying to think yourself to a satisfactory conclusion.
I would add as a door crashing commenter, that I’ve really enjoyed reading your blog. Your concerns mirror some of my mine, as do many of your critiques of the situation in which you find yourself. Either way, you’re writing is very perceptive and enjoyable.
John, thanks for taking the time to offer that explanation. You are right that to question the minds (and hearts) of other people is treading on dangerous ground, and I’m thankful for the reminder. I’ll think about what you said. Thanks again.
I’ve had many of these same thoughts, in the original post and in the comments.
First, I want to say that I loved the Father Arseny book. i’ve never read such an inspiring account of one who would always strive to see the good (God) in someone and encourage them to grow in that, primarily by his selfless and difficult service to them.
I encouraged my mother to read that book with the qualification that she would probably be tripped up by the parts about Mary. Turns out, she was. And now she’s worried about me.
I understand Jfred’s concerns, as I struggled with that myself in reading that book. I think it’s more than worrying about what other Christians are thinking, though. I am an American with a Protestant mind. I want to grow into Orthodoxy, in thought and practice. Part of how I do that is to follow others’ examples. But when their examples confuse me, I need help understanding.
That said, maybe it’s a language thing. I asked a priest last week about this very thing: Do you the Church will change the language surrounding Mary to aid in the American Orthodox convert’s understanding of her place in Tradition or do you think we will need to adapt our minds to the present language? His answer: The latter, I think. Granted he is a young priest and perhaps there is wiser counsel or differing opinions. Either way, I would like to understand.
I’m on the road to conversion and so far this has not been a “dealbreaker” for me. But I look forward to being clearer on it someday.
Mother of God, pray for us that we may be saved.
I have to confess: I haven’t read the other comments, but I read the post. Reminded me of something I wrote about two and a half years ago (with a combox discussion w/an Evangelical friend of mine following) on my blog. You can read that HERE.
Perhaps the intervention of saints could be thought of as being not unlike the intervention of angels (who are named among the saints). Most evangelicals would not balk at the idea that angels are active in carrying out the will of God in the world. So why not the saints?
1) Language differences. Pray = Ask, as in old English ‘Prithee’ for ‘I pray thee:’ addressed to anyone you are making a request of, whether dead or alive, divine or human. Save = Rescue, in any sense whatever. I.E. A) A man threw a rope and saved me from drowning. B) That rope really saved my life!
2) Theological differences. Inevitably the problem that protestants have with honoring the saints in whatever degree is that it seems to make the saints encroach on God’s glory. The problem, in my opinion, is not that the Orthodox Christianity has too high a view of saints, but that the Protestant Christianity has too low a view of God. No disrespect to you, my friend, but as soon as you can you will want to read about the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity, and what it is that separates between God and Man, the Uncreated and the Created. It is such that God can literally elevate mankind and any specific human to the highest degree possible and never be remotely threatened by their elevation. Once you understand this docrine – and it is the heart of Orthodoxy – you will never worry about honoring the saints again under the guidance of the Church, who knows her own.
As for how Mary can “hear” requests or prayers: I don’t know if an Angel gives her messages, or if she hears them in the Spirit either naturally by reason of being made a partaker of the Divine Nature or supernaturally by reason of a miraculous gift of God. I don’t know if she acts directly in some sense that only someone on the other side of the veil could understand; or if she only “appears” to act directly as a sort of heaven-to-earth shorthand for people that already understand that whatever she does is through being united to God. When I come across such apparent contradictions I just try to remember “A cannot be both B and non-B at the same time and in the same sense” and try to imagine in what sense we do pray to Mary and in what sense we do not.
On behalf of all your readers, friend, thank you for you plain honest dealing with all the struggles and joys of searchers.
There’s a great lecture series available for download at http://ancientfaith.com/specials/hopko_lectures by Father Thomas Hopko about the Theotokos that I’m in the middle of listening to right now. I don’t know if it will answer any of your concerns, but as a dyed-in-the-wool Protestant heading towards the Orthodox Church I have found it very moving and enlightening. Enjoy!
Hi JFred,
It is interesting that as evangelicals we balked at using the same language we use with “real live people” with the saints (and Mary). None of us would dream of using all the qualifiers and disclaimers and addendums and clarifications when talking about normal Christian behaviors and actions with other Christians. Imagine talking to your friend who asked you to help them out in some way (in Old English the request would be “I pray thee…” as AR correctly noted), would you correct them and say, “Oh no, you can’t ask me directly, you have to ask God because only God can really help you, and I don’t want you to think I am God or confuse me with the Trinity, after all even if I do help you it is God doing it, so I want to be sure you got it right and don’t fall into thinking I am omnipotent or anything like that…” They’d think you were a nutcase if you did that.
Why can’t/shouldn’t we use the same language and understand our relationship with the saints in the same way we talk to each other? The only difference is (in the mind of the Protestant) is they are dead…. which they are not, they are alive in Christ and actually MORE able to see, hear and respond to us that if they were alive in this flesh. So death is really not a substantive difference when it comes to our relationships with other people in the body of Christ. As my statistics prof used to say “A difference that makes no difference is really no difference at all.” In the end the bottom line is really, if YOU pray to the saints and Mary, do YOU think they are God? If not, then no problems. The entire world does not function with modern, post reformation, rome-o-phobic theological assumptions. This language has existed within the Church for two millenia and I don’t think you can find a single Church Father or Creed or Council that erred in the ways that you fear people MIGHT err with this language. So clearly the issue is not the Church’s. Entering the Church is like entering a foreign country and learning the language with all of its idioms and nuances that make no sense to us in our culture and language. Until you’ve lived in it for a few years and learn to “speak like a native” and know the “culture of the kingdom” with all of its customs, idioms and the ethos of it, you’re going to feel like a stranger . It just takes time and patience. Welcome to “total immersion”.
I appreciate reading all of your discussions. I used to over analyze everything about the Orthodox, but now I just accept the teachings of the church. I mean I trust the Chruch to guide me on such areas. For a long time, even after becoming Orthodox, I didn’t understand relics and didn’t quite feel comfortable about all of the stories I have heard about the miracles that have come from the relics. I certainly was skeptical about the bodies of Saints never decomposing. However, I knew that the Church would not steer me wrong and even though I didn’t understand something or feel comfortable with something I knew that the Church would help me grow into those areas. Just like someone might be nervous of parachuting for the first time and doesn’t know if they will be able to pull the chord in time, they still do it because they trust the plane, the parachutes, and the instructors, and those who have done it and hadn’t died. That may not be a good enough analogy, but it is the best I could do.
Hi all,
This is a great discussion–some of the best comments I’ve seen on this topic in a long time. There’s a message board group I check in with from time to time, dealing with this same subject. I am going to direct them here.
In my case, the Orthodox understanding/veneration of Mary presented no problems at all. It hardly even gave me pause, which is odd, considering my own religious heritage. I recognized that the language used, however, could be easily misunderstood by Protestants.
Very early in my journey, I was having something of a confessional-type conversation with a monk. The subject was, you might say, a besetting sin of mine. He suggested that I ask the Theotokos to help, that she would help me. I took his advice, which has turned out to be some of the wisest counsel ever given me.
Again, great discussion guys.
(the other John)
Here is what I have to offer that might be of help. “Save us” and such phrases are used fairly often in reference to saints and the Theotokos in the liturgy throughout the year. Just wait till Lent begins with the Akathist Hymn. They are all over the place.
An old but short booklet on the matter that is helpful was written by Darwell Stone, though it is very difficult to find.
The liturgical use of “save us” does not have the meaning of salvation it does in reference to Christ. It has a derivative meaning, strictly limited to intercession. This understanding is common to Cahtolicism and Orthodoxy (and even some Anglicans of the past-Stone was an Anglican btw. Anyone who knows me knows that I don’t often make this claim of commonality between Rome and Orthodoxy.) You can see this in the material in the Russian catachism from the 19th century. The saints aren’t deities, but intercessors.
Given that Christ saves and that we are in union with Christ and partakers of his priesthood and ministry, we are called as members of his body to “save” others. As Augustine wrote, Christ and his Church make up one whole Christ. The work of the body is derivative from that the of head.
The doctrine of the energies also helps I think. The saints are deified and enjoy participation in the divine life to a fuller measure. Consequently they not only enjoy holiness and immortality but other divine powers also. To deny the saints the power of intecession and to work miracles on our behalf, albeit with divine approval and sending, is to deny that God glorifies his saints and shares his life with them. To deny such things is to refuse to honor and hold beliefs about people that God does.
Concerning Mary (or other saints) “taking direct action” so to speak. I think some Orthodox (and catholics) would take this language as simply a short hand way of saying “Mary, intercede with God for us concerning…” or “Mary pray for us that….”. Other Orthodox would think of it in terms of Mary somehow taking some kind of direct action.
As far as I know, you can take either stance. How Mary intervenes is a mystery. The point is that the experience of the Church is that the saints _do_ intervene. Leave the fine details till you can ask God.
As I said in my comment on 2/13, I would check back since this is sticky subject for inquirers and former Protestants. For me, I think Perry Robinson says it best: “The saints are deified and enjoy participation in the divine life to a fuller measure. ” Of course, this is exactly it! If they were great prayer warriors here, how much more so there? If they were great miracle workers here, how much more so there? And if Mary was the God-bearing, God-honoring, God-fulfilling worker of His divine will here, how much more so there? I can picture it. We don’t become less and dissipate into the fog when our life ends here, we become greater; we see Him face-to-face and become just like Him, for we see Him as He is: An interceding high priest before our Father in heaven, working miracles for the glory of His Name.
[...] the same request from time to time). At least one Evangelical considering Orthodoxy is asking the same question HERE. The comments that follow at his site are worth [...]
My sponsor in the faith provided this analogy to me. As one feels moisture when touching a sponge saturated with water from a source, so the Theotokos and the Saints are vehicles of Grace to us. Not so much that they are performing works on our behalf as independent agents, but that it’s a natural outworking of the state of Theosis they enjoy – manifesting Divine Energies as a result of having become partakers of the Divine Nature.
Concerning the word “save”, I notice in some Dostoevsky works that sometimes a character refers to a benefactor as having “saved him”, kind of a bringing into well-being, distinct from eternal salvation.
Matthew 28:2
“There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it.”
Does it take away from the Glory of Christ if Christ had said, “My faithful angel servant, would you mind being the one to roll away the stone for me?” Of course not! And for the angel who had that honor, it is a credit for eternity! For the rest of time, the angel will be able to “boast” that he rendered the Lord such a service.
So too, does it take away from God if God allows Mary or St. John of Shanghai the honor of being the one who works out how some particular prayer request is fulfilled? So long as the one who prays is aware that the “power” that Mary or John (or the angel who rolled the stone) have ultimately derives from God’s Ultimate Power, there is no harm in it, and it in turn has the benefit of allowing the heavenly intercessor another opportunity to serve God on earth though their mortal life is over.